Finding HAViK
The Finding HAViK Podcast is about taking back what’s been lost: the skills, pride, and grit that once defined capable people. In a world where convenience has replaced craftsmanship, Finding HAViK brings real stories back to the surface. We sit down with hunters, ranchers, makers, firefighters, builders, and dreamers to talk about how they built their independence, what they’ve learned the hard way, and what keeps them grounded. The conversations are raw, honest, and sometimes messy, but always real. This isn’t about perfection. It’s about self-reliance, meaning, and brotherhood in a world that’s forgotten all three.
Finding HAViK
Balancing Technology & Tradition
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In this episode, Jake sits down with his wife, Lyndsay, for a conversation that covers everything from AI and emerging technology to firearms, hunting, and the future of HAViK. They share their thoughts on how AI is changing education and business, why it’s important to stay informed as technology evolves, and how their different perspectives shape both their relationship and the company they’re building together. It’s a laid-back episode filled with honest conversation, future plans, and a look into the mindset behind HAViK.
Welcome to the Finding Havoc podcast. You got Dom and Jake here. And on today's podcast, we have my lovely wife, Lindsay, joining us.
SPEAKER_05Yes, they didn't argue one bit on the podcast.
SPEAKER_02That you know of. We might have cut out a lot of that. It's probably the most serious conversation that I've had with her in the 15 years of marriage that we've been a part of, but it's a really good conversation actually just talking about how Havoc came about, how our relationship was a little bit affected with that, and also what she's kind of into.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I love that she was able to give us so much information about AI because I use it, but I don't really know about it. So I liked having her thought process on how she's teaching it in universities.
SPEAKER_02She's definitely obsessed with it right now, but in a good way. I'm really excited for her. She's uh has a little bit of an addictive personality and is really driven. And right now, this is what she has her teeth sunken into.
SPEAKER_05Amazing how you guys are married.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we are kind of cut from the same cloth in some ways, and in some ways, not at all. Uh, it's it's a it's a great opportunity for me to also learn things from her, and we're gonna hear about how that AI learning is kind of transferring over into havoc as well.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and of course, we had to touch on because she's from Canada and didn't grow up with um firearms, we had to touch on how she thinks about it with raising your guys' child.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so hope you guys enjoy.
SPEAKER_05Let's get into it.
SPEAKER_00They lost the tools, they lost the way now. They're calling for help every damn day. While some still sharpen stealing my step out of the flop. This is finding havoc.
SPEAKER_02How do you feel like havoc's going?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think it's going well. I think that from what you're doing and the amount of effort and work and like time that you're putting into the company and the ideas that you've come up with and the vision you have. Um, I'm really I'm I'm impressed, but also not impressed because it's you and I know you, so I expect that. But I I it kind of goes back to the like, I know you're gonna give everything you can, right? And do everything that you can. And so I'm seeing that. So I think in that respect it's going really well. Um, I'm excited for you guys. I think that you're starting to get your name out there, and you just got a really big order, which is pretty awesome. So, but I don't have anything to compare it to, so it's really hard for me to know, other than just my own. Like, I think it's going well for you guys, right? Like it feels like it ebbs and flows like everything, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, orders are definitely ebbs and flows, right?
SPEAKER_01Like we're right, yeah. The building of the company itself, I think, has been really awesome. Like the things that you the parts that you put together in the year uh has been awesome. Yeah. Has been much grander than what I guess I would have expected. What do you think? How do you think havoc is going?
SPEAKER_02Oh, there's some days I think it's going great, and there's some days I it's not going well at all. Right. The we have like we had like a stretch where we got to um tunnel vision on a couple big things that were kind of happening for the company, and we kind of stuck took our foot off the gas. And um, you know, Bobby and I had a really great meeting about that, and we're on the same page. The best part I have is having, you know, like Bobby so tight and stuff, and we we talk every day, and and we had this moment where we had a couple like large order potential things that we were having great conversations, and we got those from really pushing hard on like pop-up events and um trying to get our name out there and try to you know get the brand out there. And when we did that, all of a sudden, that's er every single time we talked, we only talked about like those three things for like a month and a half, and then I ended up well, I ended up having to go to Canada and I was like stressed to have to go up there for four days. And when I came back, there was I missed nothing for the company. I mean, I've built a lot of inventory, like I've worked really hard behind the scenes to the point where like I didn't need to be making a lot of product, but coming back and having missed nothing like sent me kind of a little bit into like a dark mode of being like, well shit, dude, like we're almost a year into this company. Just gonna say that.
SPEAKER_01Um just keep changing the timeline as we really six years in this company.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. The and I'm like, for me to miss four days, five days when I'm the only person that makes things, only person that's really fulfilling orders. I'm like, that's not good, like that's bad. And and so I spent the rest of that week where I wasn't even in the shop, I was sitting at our dining room table just trying to like let's reset, let's come up with a new plan and really get back to getting the foot on the on the gas pedal. And I think I have now Bobby and I ironically, the three big things that we were talking about, like two of them came to fruition after we did this conversation, which we'd been waiting like a month and a half for them to do, which takes a lot of pressure off of us um from like a financial standpoint. But then at the same time, like now we have this really great goal and we have a little bit better financial situation. I'm like, well, now we're really set up for success over the next couple months. And um just talking to like other people that are starting up businesses or or have in the past, like those high and lows are like what separate people from I guess deserving a small business or a business or not, because they'll give up in those moments. I don't know. I guess my that's a very long-winded answer of saying that I think it's going okay.
SPEAKER_01I'm impressed by your handling of the anxiety that goes into starting a business.
SPEAKER_02My my problem is in anxiety, it's like um it's I have too I have too many answers. It's um what do you call that when you have like too many um directions in which you can go? It's like paralysis. Um look that up, it's like a paralysis for decision making paralysis. I think it's called decision paralysis, right? My that's been my problem decision paralysis. Even when I came back from that trip and we I I realized that we've been at a halt for a month and a half, and I like came out of the like tunnel vision, I was like, well shit, like what do I do then? And like I sat down, like I wrote everything out and I used AI, which I want to talk about AI with you because that's your new world. But the um I used it to like just dump information, like every option for the decision paralysis, right? Categorize it and then try to get it into a position where I could start assigning priorities to them, and so that I could get a direction of being like, I only have so much time per day, right? Like realistically, like 14 hours is a day, 15 hours just with family obligations and stuff, is like my max, and I can only carry that so many days a week. And that's worked really well for us. I think we have a good balance of like family business time. Now that I was able to do that, I like I put it all in a dock, and then I was able to clearly like articulate it to Bobby, and that got us on the same page, and so I feel better right now, but for the last like two weeks, I felt like overwhelmed with I don't know where to go. It's like you're like you're standing on like a grid of tiles, and some tiles you're gonna fall through, and some tiles you're gonna stay steady on, and you can step anywhere. I don't know where to take a step. Um now it was like I allowed myself to like kind of pick out where I want to go, and I think I have a better, like six-month-ish target right now. I don't think that realistically going out past six months for us right now is realistic. I think we have like the year goal right now of just being like well known in Reno, um, like the calendar year. So like by December, I just want to I want Reno to know the name. Um, I want the first responder program to jumpstart again. I think that we took our foot off the pedal there. Um and then we have some good like product goals and um mana like uh marketing goals now kind of set up. So I feel better, but that's like the biggest rise. So it's not anxiety as much because like day to day, if I have a plan you know that I execute well on a plan. But when I don't, um I was like a little bit lost, I guess for like the last three weeks.
SPEAKER_01Well, I was just saying that I think the small business development center can help with that stuff too, right? At the university, like Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I don't know, I gotta look at it a little bit more and then uh obviously it's worth a phone call.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean at the very least, right? To get some guidance or whatever, sharing what your you think your plan is and and you know, just shooting ideas with other people that are right business. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I went through the website, it actually looks like they have some like market analysis stuff that they'll do for you for free. That would be like super helpful. Um I also would have like there's like SEO questions and all that kind of stuff, right? So I think that I mean it's free. I didn't know it existed. I mean, why wouldn't you then if it's free? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um there's obviously support the building and foundation of small businesses.
SPEAKER_02So for like anybody in the Reno area.
SPEAKER_01Anyone in Nevada in Nevada? That's the Reno. It's the Reno facility. It's the no that's the Reno location. Does every state have that? Where the director is? I I don't know.
SPEAKER_02So you brought that up to me though, because we were talking about AI.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. And you short for artificial intelligence.
SPEAKER_02You uh you've become kind of the guru on it.
SPEAKER_01That's what people tell me for the university.
SPEAKER_02So so you are a professor at the University of Nevada Reno, for people that don't know, and you're in the biochemistry department.
SPEAKER_01What can you say the whole department name?
SPEAKER_02Cabner.
SPEAKER_01That's the college.
SPEAKER_02That's oh biochemist. No, I couldn't. I know biochemistry. Is there more to it than biochemistry?
SPEAKER_01Isn't that crazy? Yeah. No.
SPEAKER_02What is it?
SPEAKER_01So I'm in the College of Agriculture, Biotechnology, and Natural Resources and the Department of Biochemistry, Biotechnology, and Molecular Biology.
SPEAKER_02Sounds like they need to divide some stuff up. In the College of Kavner, which is I just said that. Oh, is that what that is?
SPEAKER_01I said the College of Agriculture, Biotechnology, and Natural Resources. And the department is biochemistry, molecular biology, and biotechnology.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01But we call it biochem because of people like me that can be a good idea.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have to shorten it way down.
SPEAKER_01I know, I know. Someday.
SPEAKER_02Someday you will. I mean, you're newly there. You were in the chemistry department for 12 years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I've been there for I've been in BMBB for one year.
SPEAKER_02You have a PhD in chemistry.
SPEAKER_01I do.
SPEAKER_02You're a multi-award-winning professor. I am both in the univers in the university. I am. And you're up for the Bible award right now, which you're gonna get because we're gonna manifest that shit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The Paul and Judy. There's several Bibles. Paul and Judy Bible.
SPEAKER_02Then you win, you already won one, right? Uh-huh. The Allen? Alan Bible. Look at me. See, I pay attention.
SPEAKER_01I'm actually really impressed that you know that. That was like a while ago. Yeah. Three years ago.
SPEAKER_02Um, just to be very clear, I thought you were up for the Allen Bible.
SPEAKER_01Again. This one again? They've named multiple awards after this guy.
SPEAKER_02I knew that there was more than one Bible. I uh I thought that that was a good one.
SPEAKER_01There's there's even more than two different colleges. I found out there's other Bible awards. Yeah, so it's very influential family.
SPEAKER_02And this is like a pretty cool award, right? Because it's university-wide and you have to be nominated by a student. And so there's it's just vast, right? Because there's college level ones, then there's university level ones, and then there's state level ones, which you've been up for but have not gotten yet. And you will, because you're just you just gotta wait your turn.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02Um, so yeah, so won a lot of awards. You're a very, very good teacher. The the the thing that you're doing now, which you're teaching me a lot of stuff that I'm using for Havoc, which is AI. So you you got me onto Chat GPT, which a lot of people know what Chat GPT is now because it's mainstream, it's being mainstream and stuff. You have gone to a lot of different conferences and are using a lot of different tools for your teaching, right? You're bringing it into the university. I guess just maybe touch on what you're trying to do in the university so that people kind of know.
SPEAKER_01Oh man. Uh I have to think about the context in which I want to share this, but um, because I could talk about uh AI forever. Uh so because I'm gonna like be specific, it's actually generative AI, which is my specialty. Uh AI is like a huge umbrella term, right? So um generative AI is what people are now like using mainstream, which are like ChatGBT, which are these large language models that are just predictive, they just create predictive text um and things of that nature. And uh so my background or my passion in my teaching has been um incorporating like uh research-backed teaching techniques and pedagogy into the classroom, right? So as new tools emerge in education, like how do we adapt and how do we change our teaching to the tools, to the new students, things like that. And so then when generative AI came out um mainstream in I think it was 2021, um, I was really um interested in it as a teaching tool or just more just like, what is this thing? Right. First, that was the the thing is I'm curious about what this is because you hear all these people like, oh my God, it's thinking, it's taking over the world. And you're like, it really can't do what people think it can do. Um, and then I just kind of became like obsessed with it and I did this deep dive into like learning everything that I could about it. And uh, and so now um I kind of do twofold stuff at the university. One is kind of um helping establish like what the role of generative AI, whether it's the absence of it, its use, or just like an awareness of its existence is um in our institution, and also thinking about like how I can um use this tool to support like my students' learning. And so one of the classic examples that I'm kind of known for a little bit um or becoming more known for at the institut uh at the university is um creating a custom chatbot for my students uh in a class where um I uh basically put in all these guardrails to this chatbot and I customize it for my class, for my students, for I, you know, I don't want it to give them the answers. I only want you to pull from my content. I want you to write um help X, Y, or Z Act as a, you know, facilitate between a tutor and, you know, uh, you know, kind of helping them with quizzes and things like that. And um that has been pretty uh they using AI to support students learning in that way has been really impactful. And there's a lot of research that has come out to support that because we all learn differently, right? And so being able to like have an AI tool teach you a difficult chemistry concept as if it's talking to a nine-year-old or a 10-year-old or with a Pokemon reference or a sports reference, right? Depending on what you know, who it's in engaging with is something that we've never been able to do before. And so now people can learn um things in ways that they've never been able to learn, right? So um that's kind of like my big thing. I also um cover a lot of academic integrity stuff at the university. So one of the other roles is I'm the faculty liaison for academic integrity, which basically means I support faculty as they're trying to navigate concerns around academic integrity. And AI is obviously a big conversation with that one. And so trying to help faculty navigate that landscape is is something else around the AI.
SPEAKER_02So, like one thing that we've talked about a lot is that people's resistance to it is very similar to like when the internet came out.
SPEAKER_01And could you imagine now, yeah, like thinking like, oh man, I was totally an anti-interneter, right? And like how silly that would make you feel.
SPEAKER_02That's in your pocket, right?
SPEAKER_01And yeah, I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think that you you've not that I was ever against it, but you made the point very early on that. I'm like, yeah, you're totally right. You should get on board, you should figure out how to use it correctly, just like the internet, because the internet, right? We have yeah, it's everywhere. It's changed the world, right? The internet has changed the whole world. In the same way that you know AI is going to as well, right? Already has. It already has, and it's gonna continue to. And so I've definitely brought it into havoc from you. Yeah, and I wasn't using it before.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I've only been using it for a year, where uh it's helped me frame my thoughts, right? Where you show me, like, hey, like you go into chat and you're like, hey, I want you to ask me one question at a time, and this is like the goal. I want you to frame this thought process for me so that we can put it into say a mission statement or whatever it is, and it's really, really good at just like almost being that like assistant that can just really cleanly give you something back that is tangible. Um, I use it all the time. Like I just talked about a second ago. I had a million things in my head and I didn't know which way to go. And so I had it just break it down and help me, and it didn't make any decisions. It's it's shit in equals shit out. And I was able to give it accurate things to get me what I wanted. I spent two hours doing it, right? Where like one question at a time, really breaking down my thoughts because I didn't even know. Um, but we've used it. I mean, the website for Havoc. I didn't do the website, so Leah does our website with Moonshot Design, but she yields like she's doing a great job of learning AI for her practice because it is gonna become a thing, so she better get on that train now, or she's gonna be in the dust. She's doing a great job with that, and we talk about it all the time where she's learning these new little tricks, she's redesigning her website right now, and she's like, Man, you wouldn't believe all of this stuff it did for me. But you have to know how to do it yourself in order to get it to do it. If you give it shit, then it's you're not gonna get anything good out of it. And I think that that's also what you've been kind of framing a lot of the education side of things on, too, right? Or you're telling professors like, hey, like you're telling other people at the institute, like this is like if you frame it correctly, you can use it to be on a really, really great TA and essentially take your information and give it to the students at any given time where they can ask and uh ask any question at any level, and it's gonna be able to match that level and really elevate that student's learning. Why wouldn't you use that? It's no different than a book. Yeah. Hi, Leila. Hi, sweetheart.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, I mean, there's there's two kind of ways to think about right AI in my uh like career is right. One, like faculty learning to use it for their own um, like to support their own classes, right? Like where they're using it as a TA that maybe can help students tutor, right? Or like to to help support some of the modification of their materials or their classroom approaches. And then there's the other side of teaching students to use it, right? And so, like, that's a big um like uh I will die on the hill that we need to teach people how to use it properly, because which is which is one of the things that I'm really um trying to, you know, messages that I'm trying to get across, because regardless of what we as educators do, students are still using it, right? And you know, um, if if no one's teaching them how to use it responsibly and ethically and to actually support their learning and their future career paths, like there's no one else to do that.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that the whole point of a university, though, is to teach a person how to think critically about certain 100%, right? Then that makes sense, right? You would teach how to use the tools of our generation. Yes. When they came out with books, people taught people how to read and they taught them how to use the books, right? For information. Yeah. And then they had libraries, then people taught them how to use the Dewey Decimal system. Sure. And then they came out with the internet, and then people learned how to use the internet. It's this is just another phase to that entire big picture that's kind of happening.
SPEAKER_01Yep, and and and really like an important part of that too is that um industry is starting to require that, right? And so if our job As an institution is to prepare students for the careers that they are going into. Part of that is going to be generative AI. Even if it's not necessarily like, because so many faculty, right, don't know how to use it, right? We're all in the same boat, right? Like it's not like it's been around for us longer than students, right? We've all had it come around. It's only been around for like five years, right? Generative AI. And so, you know, it's it's even if it's not, oh my gosh, I'm going to teach them how to use it, because I know it's just, I'm going to let's talk about the ethics of using it and when we should use it and when we shouldn't use it, right? Like when the human needs to be in the loop and the decision making and when it can help us, you know what I mean, uh kind of propel our work forward. And so that's like a pretty important aspect, is that. And actually, there's um, I think if you look up um uh job listings, um, over 70% now have some um AI-related statement in where they want some experience with AI.
SPEAKER_02From a selfish, selfish standpoint of a business person, you you wouldn't want AI to be there because it removes labor from the labor force from like a selfish point of view, right? It costs you less to have AI in the business because it's one less assistant. If you're having a meeting with six people, you can have like if it's on Google, you can have Gemini just take notes as you're talking and it sends everybody very clear, like this is what happened in this meeting, and it signs to to-do list or it tasks, and you can set dates in there. Stuff that would have normally had one person in that meeting, kind of just like recording it all, compiling it all, sending it all out, is done. And so there's certain aspects that it's I don't know why you wouldn't use that. I mean, it's not really like um I know one of the arguments is like, well, if it's writing all your emails, then people are just gonna get really shitty at writing emails. I'm like, well, it can also save you time again. Shit in equals shit out. So if you don't give it something good, it's not gonna come up with this perfect email for you. You have to give it structure. It might like correct your language a little bit better or just like tighten it up to be less wordy, because I I definitely have that problem. But I mean, I think that you do too. We we both use it for those situations. I guess what I'm saying though is that I use it as an assistant. Something that would have taken me a lot longer, it does my inventory for me. Like I have a like a whole separate subsection of just my uh inventory, and I'm like, hey, I made this many sheaths and this many knives, and it removes all of the hardware from my inventory, it tells me when I need to order more stuff. Um, it's really, really helpful right now for that. That being said, though, I would put a person in that place if I could, but I don't have the time, and it it helps me at least put a little bit of a check. And I have my levels really high. So when it flags something, I go check and it's been accurate so far. But I do double check it. It's just there's like certain situations right now that it's super helpful. It saves me tens of hours a week right now, just keeping things in line.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's good for that.
SPEAKER_05I mean, what do you think is the biggest thing people are getting wrong about it?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I mean, geez. Um, I think there's one, so um one big uh I guess thing that I see constantly is people think they know how to use it and they don't. So uh the average person who just like downloaded ChatGPT and kind of uses it, uses it like Google. And so they're just putting in a question and whatever it comes out with, it's that's kind of what they're taking instead of using it as like a thought partner or using it as We compiled PDFs the other day. Yeah, like there's there's so much more beyond there's two things. That's one is like, oh, like it's basically Google, but you know, it just interacts with me differently, which is totally underselling the ability to use it. And students think that that's they can use it because they do that, which if they were to go in a workforce, that's not how you that that doesn't do anything for you. Um, the other one is uh people don't understand where the information comes from, and that everything that you see is biased and that it's not a human being, even though it sounds like one. And so there's a lot of times when it's incorrect, or the information given is only from the most popular sources, whether they're correct or not. Maybe new emerging research isn't there. Most of it's Western world stuff, right? So there's all of that to consider, which is one of the big concerns about it is we're reinforcing that loop, that certain stereotypes, right? Because the information it pulls is from the internet, which is bias, because the information there is from human beings, which is bias. And so reinforcing that loop of what that information is and where it comes from just like pushes down the little guy and pushes down different views that aren't like you know, popular or commonplace or you know, normal stereotypes that we have. So that's like that, those are two kind of main ones. But the misuse is is is really interesting because people are like, yeah, no, I can use it. And then they show me, you're like, no, no, you cannot. Like it's not Google, it's not Google, it's and it, and it's you know, it's so much more powerful. Um, like if you know how to use it and leverage it, um, it can essentially do so much in any discipline. It's it's it's really cool. But it's kind of like I had uh I had a colleague actually say, like, one of the reasons that we need to be actually teaching about how to use it instead of like, here's this tool, and then everyone's just using it. It's like I wonder if when social media first came out, when Facebook first came out, you were probably in kindergarten, I was in university. Like when Facebook first came out and social media first came out, there was no guidance on how we should be using this tool, right? Like what maybe we should be putting on this or how we should interface with it. And and the more these tools came out, right? It's like maybe if there was some level of education around, hey, let's think a little bit about what we're doing when we're engaging with these tools, then maybe that thing, you know, the internet just wouldn't be social media now for us, right? Like it would be something so much more than this garbage, which I think is total garbage. Like social media is so so garbage to me, right? I wish it would go away immediately, right? And like that's not, you know, that's not helping anybody do anything and there's no positives there, right? So it's like with AI, it's like if we need, if we don't have this guidance and we don't stop and think about like what this tool is and how should we engage with it to, you know, that is ethically and responsible, right? Then who knows, right? It's not good or bad. We decide as human beings what to do with the tool, right? And so we can make it whatever it's gonna be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, problem with that though, that thought process is that people, the reason why social media is such a big thing, it's because people, the majority of people binge it, right? Are addicted to it. And so it was, I would like to think that it probably was gonna come to a fruition in one way or another. Like movie stars have always existed, right? Before almost like, you know, before television, right? There was still like you know, on stage actors and stuff, right?
SPEAKER_05There was always been good job.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Yeah, thanks for giving me credit. But there's always been this like stigmatism of being famous or everybody loving you and having the limelight on you. Even when people don't like the limelight on them, you they like to believe or dream about it, right? And so social media and the internet just gave an easier access to that stuff. So even if you, I think, put borders on it or trained people, it was always gonna go that way because I think that that's just the natural human reaction to what they want. Everybody wants to be rich and famous until they are, and then obviously I think that a lot of people wish they weren't. The I think was and I think that that that being said, though, there's not a negative to teaching people. I just think that you would have still gotten to social media. Maybe people would have used the internet for better things faster, or or there would be better things that have come from it already. Maybe we haven't even seen some of the good things that'll come from the internet. Um and I agree with you that teaching people good ethics and good morals around AI can lead to good things, but bad people are gonna still use it for bad things, and it is what it is. And so, you know, social media is going to somehow end up. I mean, we already see that, right, with all of the AI type reels and all that kind of stuff that pops up and people eat it up. Um the the scariest part for me on a lot of that stuff is how real it is getting, and people can't um they can't decide what is real and what is not real. Right? You could like literally create a video of like the White House being on fire right now and say something terrible and you're gonna get a good portion of the country country that's gonna be like all up in arms being like, all right, let's go. And you're like, man, that didn't even happen. You know? So like fact checking checking, probably teaching people how to fact check is probably the one of the most important things, in my opinion, when it comes down to just and that's just general internet usage, though. Yes, and there's just so much garbage on it. And then, like you said, and you made the good point that the internet is populated with peep by people, and people are biased, and AI is just pulling from that, and it doesn't know really necessarily how to differentiate between that's the only reason that's it, yeah. It has no so it has no clue, right? It's just regurgitating information.
SPEAKER_01It's just taking information and yes, it's just using fact checking to me, but that's just an internet issue.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's always been an internet issue and will continue to be because people like to be the sensation of crazy stuff, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, and like we talk about like that's something that I did science literacy in my in my chemistry classes for like the last 10 years, even before AI came out. And most of the students, when you ask them in a class of 200 where they get their news from, they say TikTok.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right. I always like the question that you ask.
SPEAKER_01Like, that's not news, right? Like, like, how do you know if something is real if you're seeing it, right? Well, I don't know. I see who else posted on TikTok.
SPEAKER_02Well, if so and so posted it, then it must be true. Sorry, what? Yeah. The I like the question though, too, uh that you have of H2O.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like uh just to kind of prove a point of how easily um we as human beings can be um duped and manipulated by information is um for several years I asked my students before the first day of class, I asked them to look over a website, a real website, and um I think it's like dhm o um dot org or something. something, I don't even know. Um, and it's all about um dihydroum monoxide. And so I asked them to look over all these facts about dihydrogen monoxide, and you know, they're all real facts. They're all real facts about it and all of these horrible things, and you know, it it kills you by inhalation, and it was found in these horrible areas of the world, and it's in all of the schools, and then um it's toxic, it's toxic. And then I ask um students in in a class of 250 students who would sign a petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide, and more than 80% said that they would. Well, dihydrogen monoxide, so dihydrogen is two hydrogens, monoxide is one oxygen, so it's water.
SPEAKER_02H2O.
SPEAKER_01It's H2O. And so, like people would like you, you give them the right information, you you you turn it in such a way that gets you what you want, and you can get people to do whatever. And so I'm like, oh great, we'll all ban water and then we'll die.
SPEAKER_02So I mean, I think you having that point of view, but then also being on the AI side is like the best case scenario, right? Because there's a lot of people that are not going to have that point of view and also be pro AI or vice versa. And so that's the trouble with that situation is that you know that it can be phrased incorrectly, you know that people can be duped, and so you're trying to be like, hey, hey, how can we like safeguard us as much as possible, even though it's probably uh it's an inevitable thing, but we have to like try to put some borders on it. Um but yet you're like it's not going anywhere. No, no, so like don't fight it because that's a fight you're gonna lose for sure. Figure out how to use it or how to understand it the most, because that's the best case scenario for you to be able to control how it affects yourself, which I totally agree. So I mean, I use it definitely like Google sometimes, but I mean, why not? It's just an easy place. Normally it's up because I'm already doing something on it instead of opening up another tab. I'll be like, I need, I don't know, whatever. XY, I need oh, I mean, I use it sometimes to pro con machines that I need to buy. Um, it'll like I'll have it check reviews and that's a little different than just making one search. It's like a it's a it's a super Google, right? Where I can have it search Google and then break down the information and then give me like a top five list based off of my criteria of price, um, reviews, durability, or whatever I'm looking for in that particular say I'm buying sanding belts or something, I do it all the time. Um but then sometimes I'm also like you know, who's Kim Kardashian dating right now? No, I don't. It's Lewis Hamilton, which is I only know that because I'm an F1 fan. I don't know. I'm really excited about the AI stuff, and I feel like it's kind of cool that I have an inside man.
SPEAKER_01Me?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm the inside man.
SPEAKER_02Inside woman.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean it's it's it's everyone's like, oh, we can't, you know, we have to stop it before it's here, we have to something before it's I'm like it's already here, it's already everywhere.
SPEAKER_02It's been here for how many years?
SPEAKER_01I mean, AI has been around for more than 50 years. Yeah the the generative AI, which is mainstream, really got rolled out, I think in 2021. But it's it's infiltrated.
SPEAKER_02But it I mean that's but it's been around a lot longer than that. They they had it around. Yeah, that's when it first made public where people could use it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So it's just kind of like, yeah. I mean, we use AI every day. There's actually a really good article in New York Times article of 24 hours without AI. And uh you can't it's physically impossible to avoid it because it's everywhere. Like even the water you drink, the water treatment plants are using artificial intelligence to write help help filter your water, do whatever. Like every little thing that you engage with, there's some tie to AI. And so like it's it's just so prominent everywhere that it's just you know, it it is here, but I like the idea that we like this isn't a technology that's been built for us and we are being told as humans how to use it. It's here, but we get to decide how we use it, right? Like there are no rules, there's no like there's no manual for AI, right? Like we depending on our perspectives and our we are the ones who are deciding what we can use this for, right? Which I think is a very powerful thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_05Because we've had basically every guest on here talking about hunting and kids and all that, and you've talked about your side with Niko and hunting. We should get your side.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think I have stuff to say about that.
SPEAKER_05Especially because Jake said you're more like not anti-but no, I I think that it's not anti-hunting, not anti-hunting, but like it's not your things anymore.
SPEAKER_01No, I think that it's it's actually really a conversation to have how different our backgrounds are um around firearms and hunting, um, which like we've talked about before, the only reason I feel or felt the way I did is because of the environment I was grow I grew up in. And same with you, right? Like we could have flipped. We if you were living with the Monroe's growing up, you'd have a very different viewpoint on those things, right? Like, or were the the way that I grew up, I never saw uh a gun in my life until I was at in Nevada, right? Never once. Never thought about them, never knew anyone that owned one, never none of that, right? And uh I didn't really know anyone that hunted either.
SPEAKER_02Um and the things that you're seeing about them are all negative things, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I would absolutely say that when I um when we met, I had a more like negative view on hunting too. Hunting and um the use of firearms. And then over time, um, one of the one of the things that has been really kind of neat to see because we don't change very much as human beings. Like we are very static. It's very hard to change somebody's mind and have someone like change their perspective or allow another person to, right? Or people to change your perspective on something. And so I think that's something that um I have changed. Hunting is no problem for me anymore. I completely understand now. Like, I think it's more like just not understanding, but there's also, I think, um, I mean, not everyone is ethical hunters either, right? So I think it's just understanding. I think that's what I think.
SPEAKER_02Is that the people that are not ethical hunters are poachers, like they're not hunters, right? So there's different, there's different categories.
SPEAKER_01Totally, 100%. And so I think that you know, I just didn't I don't really know what I thought because I didn't really think much about it, but it wasn't a positive thing. And then now I don't have that same, you know, perspective. There's definitely some animals, like I really hope you never kill because I love them and I don't want you to ever kill them. Like, I don't want you to kill a moose or like oh I'm I'm putting in for moose. I know, but I don't want that would make me sad because I'm I'm a moose, and like we do we do talk.
SPEAKER_02This is a sidebar, but we always joke about our spirit animals, and I'm like a beaver, and Lindsay's like a moose.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that and there's more you should explain a little bit why yeah. So the hardworking beaver, um, a little fun fact about the hardworking beaver is that uh many people don't realize that a beaver's teeth are constantly growing. Do you know this about beaver? They are constantly growing, and if they do not uh chop wood with their teeth, they will die. So they have to constantly be working and building dams, like obviously for the the ecosystem, but also for their survival, or else they will grow too big, they won't be able to eat, and they will die. And that is my husband. He is the hardworking beaver who cannot stop or he will die. Like it's true. That's a truer statement has never been said about any human being.
SPEAKER_02If we go camping or on a vacation, I'm like, you're the you are the you are about to die, you're starting to die. I'm looking for something to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And then I am a moose. And if I don't know if you've ever seen a moose, but when I saw a moose, I've seen a moose a couple times, but I've only watched a moose, been able to watch a moose once. And uh watching that big old gangly son of a bitch in the pond, like just like just so uncoordinated, so majestic, just eating eating grass, water water pouring on its head, just like living its best life. I knew that was me. I was like, I am the moose, and then there's this little beaver next to me who's like dying to stay alive. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The nice thing about those two is that the moose likes the habitat in which the beaver creates.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_02There's a little bit more cheap. We are we don't give us a face.
SPEAKER_01We coexist to coexist, right? Where we have a symbiotic re relationship.
SPEAKER_02Anyway, I can't believe a moose. No, I like the moose. Well, I get that moose tag, you better believe I'm gonna get one.
SPEAKER_01Like in the same way, I wouldn't want you to kill like a panda bear.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but I mean you can't kill a panda bear.
SPEAKER_01But I bet you if you could, you'd be fine with it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01See meat is meat, but but it's a panda bear, and like they're so playful and cuddly, and I wouldn't want you to kill them. Anyways, back to that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but the fun fact about that though is that a lot of people look at bears as like this playful, cuddly thing because you grow up with teddy bears, like you grow up with it.
SPEAKER_01Have you ever seen a video of a panda bear?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, have you ever seen a video of just a normal black bear? They're super adorable. Oh, I know.
SPEAKER_05I've seen real videos of polar bears, but I would never want somebody to kill one. I get it. They're like angry as shit, but like they're still so cute and like and the water falling around.
SPEAKER_02That's because of the Coca-Cola. They're adorable, and I don't think they're gonna be able to do it. They're adorable.
SPEAKER_01They should, I think they're there are animals that and this is just I'm not saying killing this is right and killing this is wrong. I'm just saying it hurts my heart to kill a sweet, cute, right? Like that's that's I have a hard time with rabbits.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I still kill them, but I mean I'm eating to be very clear. Yeah, I understand because I eat everything and they're delicious, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and that's the difference.
SPEAKER_02Because at the end of the day, if I put it on a plate, yeah, and I can eat it and great.
SPEAKER_01That's that's the that's the only thing that I'm buying in on. If people people who and they're There were many people that would probably just kill something and just leave it there. Again. That's I'm not a fan of.
SPEAKER_02Again, that's that's just two different things, but the firearms part was funny because I think it was like the second or third time you went to my parents' house, my dad was building a rifle. Wasn't there just like a rifle on the kitchen table or on the dining room table? Like he was like building a rifle and you were like not okay with it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And for me growing up, there was always a rifle out or a shotgun out. We were always doing something. And I I, from the other point of view, could not wrap my head around why you were so worked up about a gun.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I was like, dude, it's not even loaded. Like it's fine. It's just sitting there. Like it's leaned up against it's over there. It's fine. Like we went hunting yesterday, we're gonna go hunting tomorrow. That's just we're not gonna go put it all back away. It's all good. Um, and it took me a while to understand your perspective of being like, Oh, you've just you've never been around them before. Like, and I understand why they're scary because the only thing you read about is people dying from them. School shootings and yeah, murders, and which is you know terrible. Like, that's nothing good about that. Yeah, that that's how I was raised on thinking about firearms, but you only think of firearms as being like a deadly weapon, and I'm like, they're just a tool, they're a tool that you have to respect, right? And you treat them correctly, but they're just a tool. And I think that it took me a while to understand being like, okay, her perspective is from her childhood and her upbringing, and it's very different than mine. And I think that you eventually got to a point where you had seen me talk about them enough and seen me like have them, because we have guns in our house and they are in a safe, but uh but you got to a point where I think you understand now that yeah, they are just a piece of metal, and you but they are a tool, you treat them appropriately, and nothing really bad can happen. And understanding them, I think it was like my cousins were talking to you, I think it was in like we were in like Hawaii or something, they told you like why wouldn't you like why wouldn't you understand it first and then judge it instead of judge it before you understand it? And you like ever since that day have been a lot more like open to like like I'll show you, but hey, like if I hand you a gun, this is what the what do you what's the first thing you do? Like we point it in a safe direction, check if it's loaded, understand the status of the gun. Then you can do whatever you want with it, right? If it's loaded, unload it. If it's not loaded, then you can hand it back, put it away, whatever, right? Um I feel like you and I have like come to a point now where we're in the same we understand each other on firearms. I don't ask you to go shoot, you're not comfortable with them. I want you to be able to know I've shot a few times. You've shot with us, but like not at all.
SPEAKER_01I don't enjoy it, I guess. That's it's not like something that I, you know, need to go do, right?
SPEAKER_02Um but I'm not asking you to either, right? I feel like it's kind of making you go against your nature, and I don't I only want you to understand how to check to see if they're loaded because in a situation in which you need to, I want you to be able to like understand how to use the firearm. Do you need to use it all the time? Like, no, like that's not your thing. It's okay. It's the same as hunting. Like, I don't expect other people to hunt if they don't want to hunt. Sure. Like if you're if it's not in your nature to kill, then it's not in your nature to kill. There's always been hunters and gatherers, and you're just you're on the other side of that coin, and that's okay. I don't know. That's kind of where I'm at with it. Like I'm at totally at peace for us not being on the same page with hunting and firearms.
SPEAKER_01I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I guess we're not really on this we're on the same page now in understanding each other. In understanding each other, but we're not asking each other to like move in either direction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. That's like but that took us what how long?
SPEAKER_01Oh no, but I don't ever think it was like a it was never an issue. It was never an issue. It was just like, I mean, I w when I moved to the States, I knew what I was coming to. Right. Like I'm clear. From friendly Canada to I'm very well aware of the the the stance on guns and firearms in this country, right? Like it's not like I like was like, oh my god, how dare you? It was just like just getting used to, I think, right? It was more just getting used to something that I wasn't familiar with.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right. Not like, oh my God, like this is like this, whatever, X, Y, or Z.
SPEAKER_02The last time I've like spot checked you though, like with the pistol, where like I like test to see, like, okay, check. You've been much more of being like, you take the fire and you point in a safe direction. Like I've seen you be more comfortable with that spot check.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Then at the very beginning, you're like, you didn't want to touch it. I could see you like it was like it was something gross.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Now you're just like, okay, like I don't remember what to do.
SPEAKER_01I still don't want to touch it, but I but you do, but I will, right? Like, I'm still not interested in, you know, like I don't know. There's just it's not my thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But again, they're in the house. You should definitely have an understanding of them.
SPEAKER_01I mean, for me, most of it too was like, it's not even just that they're in the house. Like, I live in a country now where they're everywhere, right? And I live in a state where they're everywhere, you know. Right. So it's more just like, you know, might as well know a little bit about them because that's where I live now, right?
SPEAKER_02It's it's no different than AI though, right? You shouldn't understand people that are scared of AI.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's it's mostly just a misunderstanding. They should just understand it, then they can put borders on it however they would like. But you almost need to like know it first.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Right. But that could go for, I mean, you could name 40 different things that if people had more understanding or trying to approach, right? Like other people's perspectives and their viewpoints. I mean, which nobody does, right?
SPEAKER_02And it's very hard to do. Then but it's all rooted from where you came from and how you grew up and where you're structured and stuff is right.
SPEAKER_01But I mean, the ability to change isn't rooted where you're came from. That's a human nature of like changing your mind to be open to other perspectives, right? I mean, whether it's guns or not, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, it's it's that deal. Like if you were born in Nazi Germany and you were of a middle, like a young man, yeah, the odds are pretty high that you would have been a Nazi. 100% like it's not sure. It's you can't think of yourself, you're just a person. Yeah. And you're manipulated by your environment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So, and that's that took a little bit of time, I think, for us both to like see each other's like product like product of our environments, and then we're like cool with each other.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's not like yeah, because I think for a long time, like some stuff was like, Oh, well, you I felt like you were wrong, and you felt like I was wrong.
SPEAKER_02And you felt like I was pushing an agenda on you, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Versus like understanding, like, oh, your perspective's different because this is how you were raised, and my perspective's different because this is how I was raised.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05We could probably wrap it up with a different havoc question. If havoc fails tomorrow, what do you think about this whole journey?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I've told them this. I tell them this stuff in my unsupportive uncle way.
SPEAKER_02In your uncle day way. Um I may hear about that for so long.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like you are. What a shit. That was a weird that was a weird comment. That was super weird.
SPEAKER_02If you go, if you go back on the tape, I said I was gonna get in trouble for it. Well, you I still stand by it. I think that you support me in a parent way. Maybe I shouldn't have said uncle.
SPEAKER_01No, even parent, how about in a way that is like unexpected for you? There's no parent, you can't even put parent support in a box because parents are so different with their support to their kids. So saying it's a parent way.
SPEAKER_02Support of like a parent of being like you're watching your kids do something that you're like they might learn what not to do parents with.
SPEAKER_01So saying you're supportive of the parent is too pretty. I feel like you were probably a mama's boy and your mom hovered anyways. Honest to God, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I just uh the uncle and no meanness to your mom.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_01I'm actually a hundred percent a mama's boy, but um what was I oh um if if havoc fails, um it will be soul crushing for Jake 100%. Um, but I actually will be okay with it only because I will know um that I mean I won't be okay with it. I will be heartbroken for for Jake.
SPEAKER_03In a parenting way.
SPEAKER_01In a in a in a creepy uncle kind of way. I'll be super heartbroken, broken for him, probably console him in a similar way, apparently. Um, it's windy. I will be, yeah. So I'll be very heartbroken for Jake, but I will also um feel okay because I will know that if it failed, it wasn't because of him. It wasn't because of lack of effort, it wasn't because, like in my mind, if it fails, then there was absolutely nothing that he could have done to prevent it from failing. Because um, if if it like I think that he is, if if this is gonna work for anybody, it's gonna work for him. And his what he has with Bobby, um, that combination, I think that they have the exact combination that they need to make this work. And so, like, even though it would be devastating on other levels, and I hope that he would see this too, and knowing like that he did everything, right? Some level of like, I did absolutely everything in my power to make this work. And the reasons that it didn't work were out were out of my control, right? Either the economy or right, there was just something, something that had nothing to do with the effort put into that. That being said, it's not gonna make it feel any better, but um, that's kind of how I view it is like if it fails, it's not be because of like anything that he did, you know. And and I I think that he has the best chance to make it succeed because of because you're a hardworking beaver.
SPEAKER_02Follow-up question.
SPEAKER_01Like the moose ain't starting a company.
SPEAKER_02If it were to fail, I'm not saying it's going to. How many how how mad are you gonna be when I want to do it right again? Just pick another thing.
SPEAKER_01I won't be mad. As long as I I I think that see, that's that's where my whole we get one life and we need to live for right now comes in. And I and I say that all the time with like, we need to go and do these things and live in our moment and not stress about this, that, or the other. That falls into that bucket for me. It's like I will always be supportive of that because like I'm very attuned to like we are totally meaningless on this planet, right? Like, yeah, right, like when we're gone, we're gone. And like making sure we live our life for for us in a way, like obviously, we need to create a life that we can do that with, but like putting our needs as part of that, right? And making sure that we don't die having worked 80 years in a job that we hate and have nothing to show for it is not a life that, right, that I don't want to spend my life working. I don't even want to, I want to remember the other parts, right? I want to create a life that is outside of that. And so for you, that is this, right? And uh, and so I would always support that, you know. Um, we'd have to find be creative. If we have to be creative, we have to be creative. Like I wouldn't, you know, I mean, I've been accustomed to a certain standard of living. No, I'm but but in a way where I'm like, I don't want to sacrifice, like, you know, I wouldn't want you to um for me, it wouldn't be worth it if you were never seeing your family, right? If we could never go spend time together, right? To me, like, and I would understand that maybe you're a person that would need that regardless, right? To function, but I wouldn't be okay with that because I think that the whole point, right? Like I tell you this all the time. I think that like I'm so proud of our life right now. And this is like there's nothing that I want because I think like for me, we have around your pool. We have all the things that we've ever wanted. We have more than all the things we've ever wanted. Yeah, and so like you know, I I and I feel that very much. So it's kind of like uh, I don't want to lose those things to pursue, you know what I mean? Like it would have to, you know, but but at the same time, I support all the things that we're gonna do. I wouldn't put us in a position where we'd have to lose.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like right now.
SPEAKER_01Like I know you're a little bit crazy. I'm very well aware that I've married someone who's a little bit crazy and unconventional. I have these teeth that won't grow with high anxiety, yeah. Like you have these teeth that won't stop growing.
SPEAKER_02And if you don't know, you will die. I'm gonna write that board on my board in really big letters. I have these teeth that won't stop growing. I have these teeth that won't stop growing.
SPEAKER_01And stop, full stop.
SPEAKER_02Boom.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
unknownJake.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Me, right? Like, but the moose doesn't need that. But I know you need that.
SPEAKER_02I have a friend with these teeth that won't stop growing. All right, I think we can end it here, huh? Everybody got a little bit more of a taste of our relationship, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Kind of.
SPEAKER_02Maybe.
SPEAKER_01So I just want to say to to finish up, you're welcome for me coming on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks for coming on.
SPEAKER_01You're welcome.
SPEAKER_02Appreciate you. I'll see you upstairs.
SPEAKER_01Goodbye.
SPEAKER_02All right, that's a wrap for today's episode. Thanks for tuning in and surviving another hour of our nonsense.
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SPEAKER_05And don't forget to check us out on Instagram at spread havoc for behind the scenes madness, terrible ideas, and moments where we actually get it right.
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SPEAKER_05Until next time, stay curious, stay uncomfortable, and keep spreading havoc.